Under The Rock

Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

Some perspective from a player not based in your game. Please don't bite my head off; my point of view is just my own two cents here. I'm going to use my PC as an example and trust you all not to metagame.

On blood bonds: Yes, written Anarch genre states that they are anathema. Also, vampires are quite often hypocritical. There are shades of gray when it comes to things like ghouls, mutual bonds, or bonds for teaching disciplines - but even if those don't get somebody killed or punished, they do make people judge you. Without status, reputation matters in the Movement. (My PC has blood bound people, been bound, been in mutual bonds, etc. It has always sucked, and NEVER been 'accepted' by those who knew about them.)

On out of clan disciplines: The cardinal 8 shouldn't be that difficult to learn. Anarchs don't share as freely as the Sabbat, but within a gang it's pretty generally accepted to teach what you have. ADVANCED cardinal 8 out of clans are different. Those should be difficult to obtain, especially since there are fewer Elders in the Movement than in the other sects. You should have to work and pay for those. (Using my PC as an example - I have been in play on and off for 7 years. I have one advanced cardinal 8 out of clan. I am just now lining up teachers for a few others, and they ain't cheap.)

On Clan-specific disciplines: NOBODY should feel entitled to these. Sure, some Anarchs are less inclined be loyal to their Clan, and each Clan handles it differently. Getting a Malkavian to teach you Dementation is probably easier than getting Protean or Quietus - and forget about Thaum or Necro. However, "other games do it" and "the Sabbat does it" doesn't make it okay or in line with Anarch genre. These powers should be earnable through RP, but NOT easily and certainly NOT without risk. (For instance, my PC has two out-of-Clan, Clan-specifics. One took me years of RP and several instances where character death was a real option - and frankly, it still is. The other came from interacting with the org to such a large extent that I drew the attention of Coords and Subcoords, and there are also HUGE IC risks and consequences for obtaining it.) PCs CAN BE KILLED and HAVE BEEN KILLED for possessing clan-specific disciplines. If you all want to say "we're in love" or "we're in a gang" or "we dont care about our Clans so we willl teach each other," or even "We should be more open-minded about this in order to strengthen the Movement and compete with other Sects," okay - fine. Those are legit IC opinions; tell your story and be ready to back it up ICly. But remember the org is bigger than your game, others will probably disagree with you, and having these disciplines is a GNC risk even years down the road from PCs you may never even have met or cared about.

On Combo Disciplines: This is Anarch candy. Anarchs are supposed to be the underdogs, and our combos are the one trick we have up our sleeves. These should be obtainable, but also not easily. It takes time to prove your loyalty to the Cause enough that those who have these tricks will teach them. It still takes work and RP. (Using my PC again - I have a few Combos. I worked for them, and after 7ish years of play these really only started to become available in the past year.)

TL; DR: Powers are a part of the story, but that doesn't mean that you are entitled to them just because you have a good IC reason. Blood bonds are dirty, if and when they are done, and they aren't excuses. "Earn it through time and RP" doesn't mean play for a couple of months and justify it - it takes YEARS and active networking with the rest of the Org. It can be tempting to lose perspective when you see the overpowered Cam or Sabbat PCs - but 1. We are not Cam or Sabbat and 2. Two wrongs don't make a right when it comes to power gaming. Are you a power gamer for wanting cool powers that are in line with your character concept? No, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that. But stories take TIME to develop, and the process of gaining these powers in ways that other players and characters and STs will respect can turn into the most interesting parts of that story.

Final Thought: From an outsider's perspective, this thread is reading like a flame war between players and STs. That's counter-productive. If you disagree with each other's interpretation of genre, then express that through your character's actions and philosophy. Part of the beauty of Anarch genre is that debates like this can and do happen IN CHARACTER all the time. But be ready for backlash and consequences, whether you feel you deserve them or not, because in the World of Darkness NOTHING is free.
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FayeRowan · Joined: 31 Oct 2011 Posts: 194 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

So you don't think that the fact that people feel the need to bring all of this up ooc means that perhaps people have been trying to deal with it in character and it hasn't worked? I think it's a bit much to call it a flame war or tell us to deal with it IC when you haven't played at UTR.
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Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

Britt, please do not put words in my mouth. I have seen it come up IC and OOC. I have also been asked by STs and players (and characters) for my input, so I have provided it - both IC and OOC. I fail to see why you are taking offense, and encourage you to consider the content of what I have written rather than infer insult where none was offered.
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FayeRowan · Joined: 31 Oct 2011 Posts: 194 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

You'd know if you'd insulted me lol.
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Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

I'm glad you're not insulted. We agree that the issue is both IC and OOC. I'm not sure what else you were trying to point out...but okay.

Edit for clarification: My last sentence was included as a response to "just pointing it out," a phrase deleted from Britt's previous post. I just didn't want it to seem like I was picking a fight. Yay for lack of intonation on teh interwebz. Rolling Eyes

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FayeRowan · Joined: 31 Oct 2011 Posts: 194 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

I was pointing out that you don't know the full situation since you don't play at UTR. You don't know how many people felt that this OOC post (not yours, the original) was perceived as a threat based on our in character actions and feelings.
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Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

Gotcha. Hopefully the outside persepective was helpful, and as to the rest...I'll point you to the first couple sentences of my post.
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Charles Rockledge · Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject:

but even if those don't get somebody killed or punished, they do make people judge you.
This is good. I like to play with judgment. It makes for interesting flavor.
I'd especially rather be judged either like we were once at the begining of our Org involvement, or as something reletively new and unique in the world. I don't fancy the judgement anarchs typically recieve just for being anarch. Being an Anarch Toreador, I've sometimes felt that sensation often quoted by several minority groups, of having to work twice as hard to earn half as much respect. It sometimes feels like they are just waiting for me to pull out a cigarette and spew a bunch of profanity about something; as opposed to a pipe and some satirical literature mocking the thing we are angry at (I don't mind the toreador genre at all Razz

).

However, "other games do it" and "the Sabbat does it" doesn't make it okay or in line with Anarch genre.
I agree that it doesn't make it in line with anarch genre, but wonder if it perhaps does make it okay; from an ethics and morality standpoint on the one hand or reasonable argument on the other. The fact that it may contradict 'genre' isn't IMHO a good enough reason NOT to do it.

For example, Bruce quoted:

Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

Well said on all counts. If that were an IC conversation, my character would certainly be listening and reconsidering some of her views. Your stance and philosophy are well-developed and certainly have a place in the neverending debate/rant that is Anarch "genre." I think the only issue is expecting people to make the leap from hearing you out OOC to agreeing with you right away IC. Our "genre expectations" are constantly changing and evolving based on who is loudest, more convincing, etc., so there is certainly room for your POV in the larger discussion. Are you on the Anarch IC list for the Org? I hope that you'll make these arguments ICly beyond just your home game. It would make for some fantastic RP.
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Charles Rockledge · Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject:

Hi.
Thankyou.

Actually, I've been trying to get on the anarch yahoogroup for what seems like years, now. I've sent in the appllication form 3 times. Had e-mail with a sub-coordinator once; but they don't seem to send me access.

I do occasionaly share my thoughts with other anarch toreador from the toreador global forum. Usually after asking why the feel the need to smoke in the cyber-cafe and utter strings of profanity Razz

.
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Piscin · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 157 Location: Williamsport

Hrmm. You're not the only one to have problems getting onto the lists lately. There's an IC voucher system, but I don't recall your application even getting that far. If you send me an email (cochran.ke@gmail.com) I can get you onto a few more informal lists, and I can maybe poke the guy who I think is in charge of the main list.
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