Under The Rock

Ulrich Bardonia · Admin Joined: 02 Apr 2010 Posts: 108

Everyone whose address of phone number I have receives a letter or text message reeading as follows: "I, Ulrich, as gang leader of the KoR do hereby call for a council of gang leaders at Club Samantha. All anarchs are invited to attend, but only gang leaders may vote if a vote is called for."

*Ulrich is sitting in the club Samantha coference room. He has had the normal set up of a long rectangular table with many chairs changed for this meeting. Instead if a tremendous solid mahogony round table that goes almost to the very edge of the room in all directions. There are a lot of elegant chairs that go around the table. In one Ulrich is sitting, waiting for everyone to arrive, and then beginning*

"I feel it appropriate to bring this topic to the gang leaders table. Clearly the Bandaleros have put us in a tough position. We all know how I feel about the bandaleros, but in the end they are anarchs. I would rather die defending an anarch who was wrong than cow-tow to some sabbat bitch who is in the right. What are the thoughts and feelings of everyone else?"
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Ulrich Bardonia · Admin Joined: 02 Apr 2010 Posts: 108

"Sorry for calling it here Charles, but I didn't want to be so rude as to call a meeting in your building."
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Charles Rockledge · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Sabbat Problems

I feel it appropriate to bring this topic to the gang leaders table.
Very good. Side of fries as well requested the issue be reviewed by the cabinet

Clearly the Bandaleros have put us in a tough position.
It's not so much the position but the perception of our county that bother's me more. As far as I am concerned we've been in an instable position reletive to our local sabbbat for almost four years now. Having that position brought to the forefront of our thoughts at last isn't the worst of the situations we tend to find ourselves embroiled within. However Rockland county's reputation amongs the domains of this world must remain pristine. Whether other anarch, camarillan, independent or sabbat; domains with which we wish to treat or who might desire to treat with us must be able to trust us. They must be sure that we can be counted upon to uphold our side of a bargain. The Bandelleros broke a bargain fairly struck. They removed the Bardonia Barony's capacity to have our word taken at face value. This must be rectified. The immidiate propblems we face with the sabbat are only a part of the larger issue. This county has survived for over 300 years. We wish to do so indefinitly. We need to be able to bargain with neigboring powers and not have or oaths be suspect or our decisions seem fickle. Our neighbors of any political alignment, must continue to see us as honest in our buisness propositions and other deals. We must be deemed as possed of integrity in our dealings with others.

We all know how I feel about the bandaleros, but in the end they are anarchs.
True. Yet I've made the distinction before. WE aren't 'New School' Anarchs of the second revolution. The Bardonia Barony is a remnant of the first Anarch revolt. The Masons of Liberty have crafted this barony from that cloth, from the origonal anarch ideals. And tradittionally, we've also been typically of the reformer faction this revolt. The Bandelleros still feel the same way to me as Hillery Clinton does. A perfect seguay for...

-Charles takes out a piece of paper

It's been a couple of weeks now, so I'm really not angry at them anymore, the moment passed. However, because I knew that would happen I took the liberty of drafting up my very angry speech about the Bandelleros back when I had that firey passion on hand to fuel me.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject:

V......... · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: ..

:: comes in and sits down::

:: dress kinda streetish and punkish for the holy man normal look::

wiggs · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject:

Wiggs attends as well as he just sits down near Ulrich
.
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Alura · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 369

I tend to agree with Ulric here, and I'm quite surprised at you Charles to even consider murdering your own kind.

However, the Sabbat have been coming in here and blow up innocent mortals, killing humans, and using our compassions against us.

Charles if you want a war so be it, but do not make your reasons for war the fact of the bandalaros. This is not about the bandalaros and you know it. Also do not wait for the Sabbat to start the war because we will already be dead. If we're going to strike, let us strike true and swift. But I do not stand for war. I stand for peace. I would rather not be in a war against the Sabbat, and if we are we'll need the help of the Cam, as they've been fighting them for a long time.

I do suggest we support our fellow Anarchs. And if you want a war with the Sabbat, get the support of the Masons, and have them to train them us so we may fight this fight properly, instead of dying to the Sabbat's more freely shared disciplines and clearly more experienced fighters.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:45 am Post subject:

Alura · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 369

Look if you want a war just spin it that way. We have the influence to pretend it's anything we want. Also we can cover up a sect war. Whatever we don't the Cam will.

Now if you don't want a war, say 'bad bandalaros', thank them for saving Eric's life, and tell the Sabbat that we handled it internally as Anarchs do, because that's the anarch way.

And No Charles, we're Anarchs not Cam, you can't tell someone how to behave. Someone died, let that be the lesson.

So here's my vote: War with Sabbat: I vote No. We can always smack em around with influence from behind the scenes.

Don't forget the Brujah are out of wack, and we have our own problems, let's let the Cam deal with the Sabbat and then go back to business as usual.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:29 am Post subject:

Look if you want a war just spin it that way. We have the influence to pretend it's anything we want.
It doesn't work that way. Our cause needs to be genuinely just in order to be sufficiently motivating a factor for all of the sacrifices a war entails. Otherwise people are gonna want to opt out.

Also we can cover up a sect war. Whatever we don't the Cam will.
Let's leave them out of it for the moment. Remember we don't want to end up indebted to them either, AND the more we work directly and overtly with the Camarilla the more we seem to declare publicly be declaring them allegence. I've no problem arranging cirmstances that will allow the camarilla to cross paths with the sabbat of their own volition. This preserves our neutrality in the eyes of any would be viewers. I'd rather not resort to asking them more directly for 'help', except as a final resport before an otherwise immanent mass death.

Now if you don't want a war, say 'bad bandalaros', thank them for saving Eric's life, and tell the Sabbat that we handled it internally as Anarchs do, because that's the anarch way.
Tell the sabbat We handled internally, what could even be interpreted ans an assasination attempt on their bishop? How would you take it if they tried to assanate me then sent an emmisary that said, "we delt with the situation internally? You're saying you wouldn't even ask for proof?
Saying "Bad Bandelleros, but thanks anyway" isn't 'dealing with the situation internally'.

And No Charles, we're Anarchs not Cam, you can't tell someone how to behave. Someone died, let that be the lesson.
We've been down this road before Allura. That argument doesn't fly with me and you know it. There are 9 divisions of 'Anarch' within the movement and as far as I am concrned at least 2 societies. We don't all follow the same set of behavioral protocols the world over.

In Bardonia Barony, The Anarchs really and truly adhere to the first treaty (OOC:insert name I don't remember off the top of my head) which among other concessions, gives us the right to police ourself; and the responsability to actually do so (as opposed to refraining from being policed entirely), and enforce certain laws, most notably the masqerade, but overall though, laws which as a community we agree are neccesary for the greater good.

Anarchs have laws like any society does. Laws that citizens of the body politique are a part of the creation of and in which they also must consent to obey if they wish to remain citizens of the body politique (versus say perhaps Autarchs). Part of the reason of having a governing cabinet is for the mutual imput of all anarchs in the making of barony/county law, which is then enforced by the barony, and gangs enforcers.

This is not "cam" political philosophy, it is simply how a society without a monarch or dictator still manages to maintain order and provide security to its population. If the Bandelleros want to be members of this body politique, the being of which gives them a right to to participate in the making of its laws, also gives them the responsability to adhere to those laws. If we have a law that says members of each sect may not cross each others boundaries without permission, and the bandelleros, just as an axmple now mind, decide to make a habit of crossing into cam or sabbat territory uninvited. They are breaking our laws and deserve discipline of some kind for doing so.

If they do not wish to abide by the rules withing the juristiction of this body politique (the will of the majority including protections for the minority to a reasonable degree), and their defiance isn't merley an example, but a source of real danger to the body politique; that is, all of the rest of us; then we have the right to expell that danger from our midst. There are many other body politiques out there in the world that share the Bandelleros philosophies where they will enjoy heroes welcomes and much more opportunities to revel in violent conflicts with multiple parties.

The Bardonia Barony's goal, though, has always been the peacefull cohabitation of anarchs with all other parties; who are willing to leave us at peace at any rate. The bandelleros must learn not to tempt violanc from others in this community. If they keep tempting violence, whether it is from the sabbat, the camarilla, or members of other gangs, they are working against the goals of this community. Why should they continue to work against their own Barony when therir are other Baronies who's goals are the same as theirs, whose goals can be shared without contention?

So here's my vote: War with Sabbat: I vote No. We can always smack em around with influence from behind the scenes.
Can we completley excise them from our county via influence work alone do you suppose?

Don't forget the Brujah are out of wack, and we have our own problems, let's let the Cam deal with the Sabbat and then go back to business as usual.
Your awfully anxious to call in the cam Allura. You realise that permitting the cam to war with sabbat will still involve them swarming through our own teritories to get to the sabbat, and in very large numbers; enough to make a war. Shall we really trust they will not use that situation to their own advantage? Similarly, why do you think they'd want to bother? With us in the buffer zone, they are reletivly safe from the southern incursions. Do you think they will not want recompense? Perhaps the sabbats township(s) for their own in exchange for the trouble. We'll not be better off for hving cam on all 3 sides of the barony.

If we involve the cam, it will need to be in an intgrated capacity with our own forces for watchdog purposes. Which I reiterate we shouldn't do right off the bat for political reasons. It will look more impressive to other domains if we are cabable of solving this on our own. Even if we aren't, the 'press' is still better if the cam engage the sabbat under their own banner rather than directly on our behalf for some price or another.

Especially if the plan is to sweep behind the camarillan advance to finish of the sabbat, clearing teh leftovers from the field, we still need justification for wanting this particular annex of that sect from ceasing to exist in any capacity within the borders of our county. Otherwise why would we end up allying with the sabbat to repel a cam invasion fo their territory? We need to justify wanting our own sabbbat eliminated, while maintining in the face of other sabbat that we are neutral with regards to their war with the camarilla at large.

This is a big enough bit of hypocracy to to shovel as is, as we really aren't completley neutral; at least with regards to GNYD, I think.
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Alura · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 369

Blah blah blah. *She looks disinterested until Charles starts talking about her influence.*

That has been what has been keeping us all alive here Charles, we let the Cam deal with the Sabbat and the Sabbat deal with the Cam, and we have them both not here as much as possible.

Let them focus on each other. It wasn't an assassination attempt and you know it. They were standing up for us. They were being heroes while you were letting the Sabbat boss you around, this isn't a game Charles; as much as they are playing you and you are playing games over lives.

They didn't want a simple game of 9s, they wanted us to hand over Eric peacefully. Think about the politics there.

Clearly you want a War like the Cam, you want to govern like the Cam, and control people like the Cam... You might as well just Join the Cam.

Of course we have the influence to smack em around a bit, they don't associate with mortals. That is the major edge we have.

Let's implement some dog sniffing dogs and some doctors around our borders and in their territory doing some basic health exams, because clearly we don't want any diseases coming into Rockland, and we'll keep em out. Clearly it wouldn't be an act of aggression.

And to punish the Bandalaros after two of their members died. Clearly the Sabbat were here for blood and they took it.... You Charles weren't out there in the fire fight, risking your lives trying to save the Bandalaros. Stumbling around in the darkness, while being shot at. No you ran away, safe inside, while everyone else did all the work, and you "judged" from the sidelines.

Listen to your own words, we govern and police ourselves. Don't let the Sabbat govern and police you.

A time for action: yes. A time for war? No. We had 4 Sabbat vs almost every Anarch we had and we still had final deaths... You want to piss in their turf that's fine.

Don't forget who started this ENTIRE mess. Ulric told the Sabbat they could kill mortals in the mall. He personally welcomed the Sabbat when they showed up, they were his guests. And when Eric told him and them is was time for them to leave, he disregarded that and had them stay a while.

So why don't you hold Ulric responsible for his actions too? Or are the mortal lives at the mall and the deaths of Bandalaros and the disrespect of Ulric pissing on Side of fries, in their own area and The Council of The Rose, and your Sire not enough for you? Isn't it the role of Baron to settle Gang disputes?

I'd also like to point out that, isn't it funny how you complained that 'I' was too Cam?

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject:

Ulrich Bardonia · Admin Joined: 02 Apr 2010 Posts: 108

Excuse you and your incorrect facts Allura. Lets set the record straight here.

1. I allowed the sabbat to kill mortals to save anarch lives. Do you get that concept? I dirtied my hands and took personal responsibility for what no one else wanted to deal with. The "random" sabbat attacks were because we owed them a debt and wouldn't pay. I paid it and paid it in a way that did not cost a single anarch life or cause damage to anarch territory. All in all while I may be morally reprehensible, you can certainly not accuse me of harming anarchs or starting a war. If anything I averted a war.

2. Do you really think I called slice and dice and invited them to our shindig? Do you really think I would give any sabbat member our location? No, I was intelligent enough to use my foresight to see that slice and dice would make a huge scene and problem if turned away. I welcomed them, rather than war with them. I also never extended their welcome after Eric said anything to them.

3. I asked the gang leader of side of fries if it was cool to use the warehouse I rented for a gather. How is that disrespectful? Apparently the gang leader and enforcer didn't communicate that and there was minor friction early in the night until the issue was clarified, but another gang's lack of communication is not my fault.

4. Didn't I agree to send an apology note to your gang member, fruity pebbles? Didn't I follow through on that? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I have an issue with the council of the rose, I just think you're out to paint me slanderously for some strange reason.

5. Yes, the role of the Baron is to help gangs resolve disputes that they can not work out on their own. As leader of the KoR I have to say that the knights do not have an issue with any gang that could not be worked out without intervention from the Barony.

6. What the hell do you have against me? I have largely stayed out of the public mess you are making by not having a united front for your gang's opinion. Here's a free piece of advice: When my gang has issues with each other we sit down in private, work them out and never ever cut each other down in public. It makes you look weak and insecure. So if this is about the Lady Macbeth comment, I take it back. Lady Macbeth knew how to act in public and scheme in private.

V......... · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: ..

so you called this meeting for what now, cuz all i see if in fighting and taking shots at eachother. ulrick can go a bit far at times on bounderies , but alura you can too, but you make it more public. so can we all just take a breath and relax.. or am i the only one that still breaths? wait wiggs you do to. im not the odd man out , nice.

so anyway, my vote is for the bandies having to make this up to us all and maybe getting less land for this act, but thats all. no more further then that, and anything the sabbat suggest is a hell no..
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i once played cards with god, when i caught him cheating he tried to blame it on the devil. but how could that be i said. the devil was helping me cheat you

Alura · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 369

1. Sacrificing mortals to save anarch lives is not a concept. Is it wrong. You can't sacrifice the lives of the innocence to pay our debt.

2. While you didn't call Slice and Dice to the meeting, they were there to see you. Therefore they were your guests. The Enforcer and one of the more elder brujah told them it was time to leave, you refuted that. I also tried to contact you telepathically and let you know trouble was brewing, but you clearly didn't want to hear it, and blocked my private communication to you.

3. Rented or not, it is still their Doman, and you should respect their right if they wanted them to leave.

4. Yes I saw that apology letter, you offered to play the world's smallest violin in concert. So either you need to work on your apologies because they are dripping with sarcasm, or get out your little fiddle and start playing, and I'll apologize to you.

5. I am asking the Baron to step in, because clearly there are problems and you'd rather escalate them, then settle them outright peacefully, with how I did speak to you earlier in private.

6. I have nothing against you son of the Prince. But I do wish you'd learn a little more etiquette and public decorum from your father. I have no problem dealing with our issues in public. The fact of the matter is, we're still a gang who works together, but we're not afraid to disagree with each other. After all, he is still the Baron and I am still Leader of the Council of the Rose. He has to look at the bigger picture objectively and I have to look at it from the side of my gang.

7. Thank you for taking back the Lady Macbeth comment. I'm glad you realize I'm not scheming here. I'm merely looking for the best interests of both my gang and Rockland. Clearly I'd rather be crystal clear, and I'm not the evil one here.

The only thing I "have against you" is your lack of etiquette considering your Bardonia name, and your willingness to sacrifice innocent lives.