Under The Rock

GlennT · Joined: 20 Oct 2010 Posts: 118 Location: Westchester

This is not said to start a flame war or look for arguements. This is also directed at no one in particular

It was said after last game. But i want to re-emphasis it.

Try to keep in mind your Lore level in the things you say. Even if you may have heard it from someone else. You are a vampire and they lie. Don't believe everything you hear just cause OOC you know it to be true. If you don't have the lores to know it. The exact names for things escape you. You don't remember that it is a Spectre or a Wraith w/o the lore. You just remember some vengeful spirit. If you think you know enough, and should believe the source enough to have a lore talk to us and we'll see what we think. But. Keep it in mind until then.

This especially applies to things that are:
Clan specific
Sect specific
Genre specific

Thanks
~Your "Friendly" neighborhood ST
_________________
AST
~The Answer is NO unless you convince me.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:40 am Post subject:

How does my Academics ability apply to knowing stuff?
I'm specced in myths, legends, and folklore.

It may only be from the shallow depth of mortal perceptions recorded thoughout the ages, but I do presume to know at least that much about every kind of thing that isn't WW origonal creation. I.E. Charles does not know anything about Nosferatu eating monsters with big huge three pronged mouths that I read about OOC in WW specific content, but he does know the story of Fionghulla The Swanmae after whom he named his first daughter/wife (ghoul).

On a similar note, one persons myth is another persons religion.
Even if I don't know anything 'real' about all the creatures that are in WoD. I disagree that I shouldn't believe any of them actually exist. On the contrary, if mortals can believe these things in real life, and in game we're proof that vampires at least are indeed real, I'd rather believe that everything actually exists until I'm proven something doesn't. We already know myths and legends are grounded in factual events. How far a strethch is it, from a supernatural creatures perspective, to presume a story about another supernatural creature might actually be about a supernatural creature and not merely mankind trying to explain away natural phenomonon by personifying it.
_________________
"My Girls is clean and kind spirited".
"If you hurt them, I am going to kill you slowly."
-Insert humanity check.

James The Brujah · Joined: 16 Feb 2012 Posts: 9 Location: NY

Ok, I'll take a stab at this. This is a somewhat complicated and very multi-faceted question. Academics is an extremely broadly based ability that I personally believe should require a field of study (spec) at even the first dot. Heres the definition of the Academics ability from the VTM 20th Revised book, page 107:

Academics
This catchall Knowledge covers the character’s erudition
in the humanities: literature, history, art, philosophy,
and other “liberal” arts and sciences. A character
with dots in Academics is generally well rounded
in these fields, and at high levels may be considered an
expert in one or more areas of study. Not only can this
Knowledge impress at salons and other Elysium functions,
but it can also offer valuable clues to certain past
— and future — movements in the Jyhad. If you like,
you can choose a specialty for Academics even at less
than 4 dots.
• Student: You’re aware that 1066 isn’t
a Beverly Hills area code.
•• College: You can quote from the
classics, identify major cultural
movements, and expound on the
difference between Ming and
Moghul.
••• Masters: You could get a paper
published in a scholarly journal.
•••• Doctorate: Professor emeritus
••••• Scholar: Scholars worldwide
acknowledge you as one of the
foremost experts of your time.
Possessed by: Professors, Literati, Topical Bloggers,
Elders
Specialties: Poststructuralism, Impressionist Painting,
Imperial Rome, Color Theory, Linguistics

As that reads, its an Academic (IE: scholarly instruction) knowledge base. I'm assuming you're not sitting at a 1 or a 2, as if you were this conversation would be relatively pointless. You're correct that Academics gives you a relatively broad knowledge base on "stuff" having to do with your spec of Myths, Legends and Folklore. Academics is not lore. Academics means you've studied things, you've spent a ton of time reading up on (in your case) myths, legends and folklore. Can you choose to believe it? Absolutely. Believe away. However, Academics and Lore are completely different things. Academics is easy to get. Lores are typically much harder to get and much more closely guarded by their keepers. Academics will tell you that "sure... supernatural shit exists... theres this story from X location at Y time that says a werewolf jumped out of nowhere and chomped the crap out of this dude and then took off and suddenly was gone" thats fine. That does not give you the knowledge that a Garu of X Tribe jumped out of the Umbra in Chrinos and blew a bunch of rage actions to kill the shit out of someone then hopped back into the Umbra. That would require Garu Lore (and a lot of it).
Academics is general knowledge and belief. Lore is specific shit. What Glen was trying to say is that when characters with say... Academics (or no ability whatsoever)... start using words like Umbra and Chrinos and Fae and Black Hand and Pentex and the list goes on and on and on, without the specific lore to back up them even knowing the term, we (the STs) get kinda mad.
So, to sum up, your Academics ability gives you a broad knowledge base about myths, legends and folklore (your particular spec). It does not give you specifics about White Wolf lores. If you choose to have your character believe that "supernatural shit totally exists" and it falls in line with your nature, demeanor, academic background and the general guidelines of how you created your character... sure, go for it. You can believe whatever you want. Dont expect to get in on specific lore chops thrown by STs. Lore is Lore. Academics is Academics. Dont go throwing around terms that require a specific lore to even know. Academics doesnt give you knowledge about any specific thing that lore would give you knowledge of. If it did, why buy lores? There are an almost infinite number of lores requiring months of in character buy up time and tons of points spent (my brujah has over 40 points just in lore... and ive hardly scratched the surface). If a player could substitute any of those with a simple 5 points in Academics spec'd in "the supernatural", why waste the time/energy/points on lore?
_________________
James
Pack Midnight Progeny
Sabbat Emissary to the Rockland Free State

Too cold to start a fire,
I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones.
I'll take the river down to still water,
And ride a pack of dogs.

OOC: Sam H.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject:

I'm assuming you're not sitting at a 1 or a 2, as if you were this conversation would be relatively pointless.
No, I'm 5 dots; and the spec.

justagirl · Joined: 21 Nov 2011 Posts: 22

Sure, but if you look up vampires online, you get everything from Buffy to horrible Harry Potter/Twilight slashfic to actual academic-type work (ie, medical historic disorders). This stuff is almost entirely pop-culture and not 'factual' and without the actual lore, there is no way for a character to tell the difference. So if an ST would like to let you go after a 'fairy' with a megaphone, shouting about how you don't believe in pixies in order to kill them, have at!

Academics can give you ideas about things, like you would know there are many celtic and norse myths about fairies and such. But specifics would be beyond the scope of the ability unless it was specced very specifically.

For instance, Lauren the player has a degree in History. We can call this, say, Academics x3 in history. Her undergraduate dissertation was on the historical significance and use of demonology in the Roman Catholic church. So this VERY SPECIFIC corner of academia might be useful in knowing where to start looking for demons having to do with the Roman Catholic church.

If someone had an Academics spec in like, cultural anthropology of pre-Christian European mythology, they might have some useful information about fairies. But I sincerely doubt anyone has that. If you do, kudos.
_________________
IC: Jazz
Gangleader
Custodians

OOC: Lauren

inblack83 · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 398

I would also like to point out that your PC can't use that wiki page b/c it actually cites stuff from Changeling and has links to the books written by White wolf.....

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:59 am Post subject:

@Lauren
Vampire only sites buffy et al at the end in areas clearly labeld as games, television and films, fiction and literature, etc. It doesn't mix it all up with ancient greek, oriental, balkans and african mythologies as if both they and Buffy can eqully be thought to be true. The page is a good example of how real-world vampire mythology, and WW vampires differ. Showing how IG, real vampires being WW vampires, much of the academics on file about vampires in say a hunters society is actually wrong; and would need the lore to know the real stuff. I presume fairies are the same. The WW version that are real IG wont actually fit all the genuine IRL folklore.

Even so, @Bruce
Changeling the WW game is only listed as two popular culture links under the see also menue. Stuff under the paragrapgh on changelings way up in the middle of the article isn't taken from WW. WW 'appropriated' actual cultural beliefs, edited and modified them to make the game, created lores to specifically relfelct the edits and modifications it made to the origonal Cultural derived versions; so that lore preresents the 'IG real' versions, and academics represent what mortals think but are actually worng about IG.

To what degree though? Like the name loup-garou, the fairy article does mention the term 'changeling'. This is all in reference to the use of terms in play, not actual knowledge of the creatures in question. I'm stating that for all the things we might for example need garou lore to know. We don't actually need it to know the the word 'garou', and that it means werewolf. That's not an especially hidden term like 'Pentex' (i.e. the term garou is not a WW origonal content). Similarly, 'wraith' is just old scottish for ghost or spirit. Without knowing anything specific about wraiths, I should still be able to use the name 'wraith' interchangeably with ghost or spirit. What I'm looking for from academics as regards supernatural creatures is not knowledge pertaining to details about their societies or behaviors or anything, but more leeway or lattitude in usuing/knowing the actual names of stuff (specifically, stuff WW actually appropriated from IRL and didn't invent itself).

What I mean is that it is just as annoying to player as it is to the ST when I'm saying to someone "Well the last time we had to deal with wraits around here..." then an npc's says "what's a wraith". and I say "a ghost." Then ST says "you don't know that." I hate it when that happens!
...or worse, when the next reply is "You believe in ghosts!" in a scoffing tone of voice. I'm tempeted to respond to that with "You believe in Humans?!?" with incredulous tone of voice (Who here has any human lore?). It's as bothersome as trying to talk creationsim with an athiest or evolution to a fundamentalist.
_________________
"My Girls is clean and kind spirited".
"If you hurt them, I am going to kill you slowly."
-Insert humanity check.

James The Brujah · Joined: 16 Feb 2012 Posts: 9 Location: NY

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject:

James The Brujah · Joined: 16 Feb 2012 Posts: 9 Location: NY

I outlined exactly to the letter what Academics does and doesnt do. Apparently you missed it... or you just want your particular version of academics to be super special. Academics is run as per the book. I'm a powergamer. I love silly spec's that give me a broad sweeping bonus... like speccing my animal ken in "the beast" so it gives me bonus traits on several different challenges rather than just the one that a spec is supposed to give. However, in character knowledge is a super duper important part of this game. If everyone knows everything all the time, then there cant be any interesting plot. If bruce had walked in as that huge guy and started doing what he did and everyone just turns to him and goes "oh.... thats X type of fae, he's from this realm, he has these powers, this is how you kill him, if you want him to go away you do this" the game would just be goddamn boring. Theres supposed to be that level of "what the fuck?" to this game. Sometimes wierd shit happens. If you have the appropriate lore you know what happened. If you have something like Academics you can propose a theory... and you can totally 100% believe that theory... but you could still be wrong. Academics is not lore.

edit- also... you say noone has given you a good reason why your ability cant do that. The answer is as follows: your ability doesnt do that because the book says it doesnt do that. We dont just make this up as we go along.
_________________
James
Pack Midnight Progeny
Sabbat Emissary to the Rockland Free State

Too cold to start a fire,
I'm burning diesel, burning dinosaur bones.
I'll take the river down to still water,
And ride a pack of dogs.

OOC: Sam H.

Summer · Joined: 17 Apr 2010 Posts: 31 Location: Behind You!

Just to point out it's still a modern era game. Any idiot with 20 dollars can walk into a book store and buy any amount of books about fay/fairie law and mythology. Or Mythology in general. Also it wouldn't be hard for a vamp. to break into a book store or library and steal the same said books. Not that I am try to promote theft or anything.
_________________
I love going bump in the night.

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:39 pm Post subject:

Alura · Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Posts: 369

There was an interesting point brought up. Do the White Wolf books exist in the world of OWBN? Could we buy one in character and be like hmmm, that's an interesting idea.

Alura might just have to start a VOTM game, and have everyone make characters!

http://xkcd.com/244/

Charles Rockledge · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject:

A completley seperate question pertaining to the use of academics:

CAN I actually invest my 5 ability points of academics as a downtime action into writing an impressive disertation about something, then in the following month use my media influence to publish it, then in the month following the publishing of my impressive disertation, use it to garner influence with university(s), or fame, or cash royalties, or some such?
_________________
"My Girls is clean and kind spirited".
"If you hurt them, I am going to kill you slowly."
-Insert humanity check.

FayeRowan · Joined: 31 Oct 2011 Posts: 194 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY

Non White Wolf Definitions from actual mythology
Changeling-a child surreptitiously or unintentionally substituted for another.
(in folklore) an ugly, stupid, or strange child left by fairies in place of a pretty, charming child. (Origins-Cornwall, Ireland, Scotland, Malta, Scandinavia, etc.) Includes specific changeling instances such as Trolls/Ogres raising changeling children.

Fae-Plenty of folklore, including the commonly used names for the courts

Vampire-I don't think anyone could question the amount of mythology surrounding and focused on vampires.

Garou-direct French translation of the English word werewolf. Includes common weaknesses, even tribal natures.

Prometheus-From Prometheus a Greek demigod and the son of the Titan Iapetus. Prometheus created man from clay and gifted him with fire, for which he was punished by Zeus who chained Prometheus to a rock in the Caucasus where a vulture came and daily fed on his liver. Prometheus means "forethought" in Greek, from pro- "before" + ''mathein "to learn."

Wraith-Scottish dialect for ghosts, Medieval legends, includes direct references to fetters and oblivion

Orpheus-directly based on the myth of Orpheus, who journeyed into the underworld to retrieve his wife, connected with other myths involving astral projection and the like

Mage-magicians/wizards/the like have been prominent in mythology pretty much since recorded history, key terms including archmages, the differentiation of mages based on spheres of power, specific spells, bloodlines, etc.

Mummy-Egyptian book of the dead, etc.

Demon-Old Testament, Book of Enoch, etc. all represent demons as fallen angels, demonic possession, differences in attitudes towards humans all depicted in mythology

Hunter-Malleus Maleficarum, Professional vampire hunters in the Balkans, Croatia, etc.

I think I covered each game except for Geist, Princess, and Pimp. (Although I can include those if needed Razz

)
There's a reason it says to not allow specializations in lore-like topics if you plan on using the lore system lol.
_________________
Don't be offended by my frank analysis, think of it as personality dialysis Wink